In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by News Editor Joel Stocksdale. They kick off the episode talking about car news including the return of two vehicles, the Chevy Bolt electric car and the Toyota Land Cruiser SUV. They also talk about Porsche sticking with internal combustion for the 911 for the foreseeable future. Then it's on to the vehicles the two have been driving, starting with the BMW XM plug-in hybrid, the Subaru Crosstrek, and wrapping up with the Honda Accord. And to cap off the episode, the two respond to a long-time listener trying to figure out which car to let go to make space and liquidity for something else with the Spend My Money segment.
Send us your questions for the Mailbag and Spend My Money at: Podcast@Autoblog.com.
Transcript[THEME MUSIC]
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GREG MIGLIORE: Welcome back to "The Autoblog Podcast." I'm Greg Migliore. We've got a great show for you this week. The Chevy Bolt is back. We're seeing more of the Land Cruiser, which is also back from the dead. And we're going to talk about why the Porsche 911 will maintain an internal combustion engine, at least for a little bit.
We've been driving some interesting things like the BMW XM, Subaru Crosstrek, and the Honda Accord Hybrid. Joel and I have been basically trading cars this week. So we've all managed to get through all three of them. We will spend your money. And with that, I'll bring in News Editor Joel Stocksdale. How are you? Happy Wednesday.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, doing all right.
GREG MIGLIORE: Breathing in this great air, this great air quality in Michigan with the Canadian wildfires. I'm getting the alerts on my phone now, which kind of need to turn those off. I don't really like those alerts. They're a little alarming. But so it goes. It'll be fall before you know it.
All right, so the Bolt is back. This is pretty big news. We thought it might happen. GM CEO Mary Barra kind of teased it out. It's going to be Ultium powered. We don't know a heck of a lot else. But I think this is a good move for GM. I think this was-- to move away from a more entry-level electric vehicle that sells pretty well, is generally well received.
The only downside was they took an image hit with the battery problems a couple of years ago. Switching to Ultium essentially solves that. And they had remedied that problem earlier as well. But I think this is a great move. I think the name has a lot of brand equity. What do you think?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I mean-- I didn't really think Chevy was really going to abandon that segment at all. Yeah, there was going to be a hiatus between the current Bolt going out and-- whether or not it was still going to be called Bolt, something else is going to fill that spot because Chevy is a mass-market company. And even if they sometimes focus on more profitable vehicles, they're not going to want to abandon a segment where they're competitive.
And the thing is, the first half of this year, Bolt has sold better than it basically has in its lifetime. It's actually sold better than a lot of other, more profitable models in GM's lineup.
The Bolt is selling better than Suburban, Colorado, and a couple other models. But just those two truck models, those are a big deal models for Chevrolet. And Bolt has been selling as well as them. That's not something that you're going to want to just abandon.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, in some ways I wonder-- and I don't want to get too inside baseball here-- but sometimes PR departments, it seems like they can handle the messaging a little better. Maybe don't say you're going to kill the car. Just say we're going to let this run and then we'll likely replace it. And I think at that point, everybody's like, OK.
I-- frankly, the last time I drove a Bolt, I really liked it. It's fun to drive. You get all that torque. I drove the car-- the car as opposed to the utility crossover variant. You're low to the ground. You get all that torque. It steered well. You can almost get a little bit of-- almost like torque steer. It was-- it was fun. I think it looked pretty good.
To me this is-- I'm dating myself. But a long time ago, Ford and Lincoln were talking about killing off the Town Car. And they didn't do it because it was such a big seller in fleets and for all these other things. and obviously, ultimately they did.
But I remember talking to one of their executives. And they were like, yeah, we know this thing is basically from the early '80s. But it would be a mistake to kill it. And I think in some ways, it's somewhat of a similar situation where they're correcting a mistake, like don't-- don't steer into it. You need the Bolt. So I think it's interesting. And it's going to be 2024. So the current car is going to run on out. And then we'll get this new one at some point next year.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, and I'm sure-- I'm sure this was just a case of GM communicating poorly, which I think I think GM has a history of not messaging well. And I think this is probably a case of this generation of Bolt was probably going to be phased out regardless, this year or next year, because it's a fairly old platform at this point. It got a major refresh a couple of years ago.
But this has been around since 2016. So it's getting to be about six years old. And GM is phasing in a whole new electrical architecture. So it just makes sense to go ahead and end production of your old platform car, probably, for a new platform car.
And I think it was probably a big case of just-- I don't know-- people not talking to the right people, and saying that we're going to kill this off before announcing that there's going to be some kind of successor, whether or not it's named Bolt or not. Now we know that it's going to be named Bolt. I think it's kind of silly.
And GM is doing a similar thing with Camaro. But I think maybe a little bit better because they've said that they're going to end production of Camaro. But they have also said that while teasing the fact that there's going to be some sort of successor.
GREG MIGLIORE: To me, with Ultium, that could really be a game changer for GM. They want it to be. And when you have a scalable, electrical battery architecture that could go in all sorts of different vehicles, yeah, you could slap it in the Camaro. Of course, you could throw it in the Bolt. They're using it in things like you know the Cadillac IQ, the Hummer, Silverado EV. You could basically use it to reinvent your entire lineup. I'm starting to sound like a Chevy commercial at this point.
But yeah, it makes me really think the Camaro maybe won't be dead for very long either. Let's get a-- let's get an Ultium battery pack in that. And let's-- I-- I don't know. I think there's some daylight for Chevy to make an Ultium-powered Camaro with-- they could be the all-electric coupe, sort of like the original Tesla Roadster.
Right now, I think Mustang, the Nissan Z car, they're all like running out ICE as long as they can. We'll Talk a little bit about how the 911 is going to keep with its ICE power plant for a while, even after the rest of the lineup goes electric. Camaro could be the electric sports car.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: I don't know. That sounds pretty good.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: Maybe I'll write a column on that. I'm going to write that down.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I think that'd be a lot of fun. Hopefully, they can keep it reasonably affordable too. And granted, that's-- seems to be what Stellantis is going to do with Charger and Challenger-- what was their-- what was it called-- the Banshee concept.
GREG MIGLIORE: The Banshee concept. Yeah. In their case-- that's true. That's a great point. They-- I feel like they've lost some daylight too, as to what's going to happen with the Charger and the Challenger as far as will-- yes, they're going electric. And the current generation is going away. But if you read some of the scuttlebutt, it sounds like there's at least a potential they could drop that Hurricane Straight-Six into a Charger or a Challenger version.
Again, nothing confirmed. But that's another really-- that's a good point you make, Joel. Their communication wasn't great either. They're like, we know the Charger and Challenger are going away. And we've got this Banshee Daytona concept thing that's a Charger with two doors. Charger, currently, is four doors. What are you going to do? Are you going to give up half your sales there? A lot of questions.
I digress. We were talking about things that are dead and then back from the dead. How about the Land Cruiser? Little teaser this morning-- I love the vintage one in the background. As far as teasers go, this is actually a pretty good one. You're only seeing the front end of the car. A lot of people have questions about what's going on here. A little bit of almost a Lexus vibe to it, which we expect, as far as the mechanicals. But you wrote this one. What do you think?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, think it's going to look good. The big news is that we can finally see the front end of it. And it's definitely got a retro vibe to it. It's got the big Toyota block lettering in an egg-crate grille up at the front. It's got rectangular headlights that clearly, Toyota wants to tie back to the old FJ62 Land Cruiser.
And the other news is that we have a date for when we're going to see the whole thing. And that'll be August 1 at 9:20 PM Eastern time. And yeah, it's going to look a little bit like a Lexus GX because it's basically going to be a Lexus GX, just with Toyota styling, and probably not as luxurious of an interior.
I would bet that it's going to be a fun interior since they seem to be leaning a little bit into heritage and retroness that it'll probably have some throwback styling cues and things, maybe some rugged materials, kind of like in Toyota RAV4. And yeah, it should be a very boxy, blocky, rugged SUV that I think is going to look really good.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I think as far as teasers go, it's always fun to-- sometimes these things are really drawn out. But in this case, hey, at least they're showing us clear view of a little bit of the car. And hey, you get to look at that old Land Cruiser in the background. So it sounds like we're working late on August 1. 9:20. Mark your calendars, Eastern time. That's going to be a lot of fun, I think.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah. And just as far as teasers go, I have been appreciative that Toyota-- they've been releasing a lot of teasers. And that can get to be kind of tiring. But with Tacoma before this, and now Land Cruiser, it feels like every teaser actually does provide some more information.
And that's-- that's a nice change of pace from-- boy, in the last five years, it's felt like most teasers have been a lot of super dark, shrouded photos of vehicles, that don't show-- that don't reveal anything. And there's no information-- there's no information about the vehicle.
Back with the Tacoma teasers, we found out things like, there's going to be a hybrid. There's going to be a manual transmission. They're dropping interesting bits about the mechanicals and things. And that was a nice break from four weeks of teasers that show nothing and no-- and with absolutely no information to go with them, or like Dodge, with the Hellcat-- the demons, that they-- so many-- those teasers, they went so cryptic with them that the mystery was kind of fun.
And trying to figure out what they were trying to say with him was always fun. But they were so cryptic, it was almost impossible to actually figure any of that out. So it's been nice to have some teasers that actually do a little bit more than just say, hey, this is coming, and then nothing else.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, no, it's kind of how it works. Again, not to get too insidery, but car companies, for the really big reveals, they like to tease this out, build some momentum. Sometimes it's a little bit of an eye roll. You're like, really? OK. But in this case, it's-- you're seeing some things. And we have been getting some information. So we should probably do an everything-we-know post about the Land Cruiser, it sounds like. I'm making notes on this, here, getting a lot of story ideas from this podcast.
All right, so let's talk about the 911-- will be the sole survivor of internal combustion models. This is a Reuters story we wrote-- we ran. But I think it's an interesting and also natural evolution for Porsche, to preserve some internal combustion engines for the 911. When you think about what Porsche means, how even their SUVs sound and feel, they do carry that 911 vibe.
I know it's a little bit of a cliche. But they do sound right, drive like a Macan or a Cayenne. And a lot of them do sound right, especially at certain trims. So I think you do want to preserve some of that for the 911. They left some wiggle room in here, as they always do. But it sounds like a pretty natural move, if you will.
I would expect if there's going to be a hold out, it would be something like the 911. Even though Ferrari and Corvette are going electric, I think you could preserve one or two models, if you will-- well, one model. So I think this is solid. And they're going to start using alternative fuels for it, which is an interesting subtext. So-- I don't know. Have you've driven a 911 lately? What do you think?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: It's been a little while. But yeah, if any model was going to stay internal combustion, it would make it would probably make the most sense to keep the 911 that way, at least for a while. I don't know if that'll be a permanent thing. But-- the 911 is the most old school of the Porsches. It still has the engine in the back.
And it's the car that the Porsche purists get the most upset about if Porsche moves away from anything. There was all the uproar over Porsche going to water cooling back in the '90s on the 911-- and to say nothing of not having circular headlights on it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, that's true.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: So it makes sense that the 911, one that is the closest to the original Porsche 356-- it makes sense for that to be the internal-combustion car. I wouldn't be surprised if maybe they hybridize it at some point, maybe even making it plug-in hybrid, eventually moving toward full electric because Porsche is definitely moving heavily towards electric power.
The next Macan will be all electric. It looks like the 718 models, the Boxster and Cayman, are probably going to be all electric and soon. Porsche's been playing with a lot of-- well, Porsche has the Taycan, already on the market.
GREG MIGLIORE: Which I really like, by the way.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, yeah, I have only ever heard good things about the Taycan. And-- yeah, so Porsche-- yeah, it makes sense that 911 will stay ICE for a while, maybe go hybrid. And the rest of the line can go electric because the Porsche purists won't be quite as upset with those-- probably still be a little bit, but not as much.
GREG MIGLIORE: The other thing, too, is what I think of like how you use 911-- yes, some people daily drive them. And that's great. I tend to think of it as obviously the quintessential sports car, which means you truly drive it for enjoyment. You don't drive it because you have to drive it. You drive it because it's what you do on a Wednesday night in the summer. It's what you do on a Sunday afternoon in the fall.
You're choosing to do that as a leisure activity that's fun. And to do that-- I love driving electric cars. But there's nothing like a Porsche engine, the way they sound, the way they feel, especially in a 911.
And if you're asking me what I would like to do, as I'm maybe blitzing out of my barn in the countryside with the leaves flying, give me an internal-combustion engine for my 911. I get the logic. It's one of those things where-- that sounds like a lot of fun to me. It's different than saying, hey, do you want an electric lawn mower or a gas lawn mower.
This is-- it's why some people still use-- they shine their shoes or use old-school straight razor blades. They do it because more engaging and less technical. So-- yeah, I--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Something that I will be interested to see though, especially since-- because I'm pretty sure that the Cayman and stuff are going to go electric-- is how Porsche is going to handle the fact that 911 has always been the pinnacle of Porsche driving and performance.
And Cayman and Boxster have always had to live in its shadow. And it's going to be interesting to see how this works because in many ways, electric powertrains can provide much more impressive performance than gas engines.
And it'll be interesting to see how Porsche balances the fact that 911 is supposed to be their top-tier sports car. But Cayman is going to have powertrains that could potentially stomp a lot of 911 models.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: It'll be interesting to see how they play that.
GREG MIGLIORE: Isn't that the age-old question, though, Cayman versus 911? Do you want a rear engine? Do you want a mid-engine layout? I've-- the other thing is, is to your point, as far as just pure fun, it is really tough to beat the driving dynamics of a Cayman and a Boxster.
I do not miss the extra firepower that their lesser-powered engines have. You get inside that thing. The engine's behind your ears, the steering, the chassis. It seems like it's-- in some ways-- I know this is a cliche again, but a lot of people say, well, this is how the 911 really should be. So--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah.
GREG MIGLIORE: I don't know.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And also, I just love the fact that the 718s are just smaller. It makes me feel more confident that I can just throw around and have fun with them. 911's gotten big.
GREG MIGLIORE: It is. That's the other thing, too, is when you drive it-- whenever I drive a 911, I often feel like, there really is no substitute for this car. It is a 911. You feel everything you want to feel when you're driving it. But then you're like, oh, man.
I won't say it's a Challenger. It's not a Dodge Challenger. But it definitely does feel like a larger car. And when you get in a 718, you-- I feel more connected and more on my toes, maybe a little bit more adrenaline. The visibility is better. So it's a lot to consider, especially if you're going to drop six figures out a car.
All right, let's talk about what we've been driving. Let's start off with a BMW XM. You're going to do a road test on this. We actually traded cars last week. It was good to see you, good to see Rusty. It was really a striking car, I thought. And to me, it was like-- there was just so much going on. It was almost like a circus. The design was impressive but busy. Inside, there were a million different things going on with the infotainment, a lot of different materials.
And it's a hybrid. You can drive it all electric. Or it could be pretty powerful. So with that, you did drive it a little more than I did. Were you as blown away by it? Or did you just naturally be like, OK, I get all of it because I was honestly a little overwhelmed the first couple times I drove it.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: So there's definitely a lot going on, looking at the car. I have come around to really liking the styling quite a bit. And I know that's going to be a bit controversial. But--
GREG MIGLIORE: I'm with you. I like it.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: But there's a lot of neat stuff going on. I love the chop-top roof. And I like the fact that it's not trying to be the fastback coupe style that we've seen from everybody else, and that BMW really pioneered with that original X6. It's actually got a slightly more conventional shape to it. But it's chopped down and hunkered, and looks very muscular. The giant rear fenders are really cool and the crazy quad exhaust tips.
Honestly-- and BMW people might take this the wrong way, but I could almost see Dodge being able to throw their branding on it, and people wouldn't bat-- wouldn't even blink. It'd be like, oh, yeah, that's totally a Dodge. It looks like-- it looks like a muscle SUV.
GREG MIGLIORE: You think it should be the Stealth?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, I don't know if I'd go quite that far. But there's actually a lot that I like about it. And I like some of the detailing. I like the geometric pattern and the door handles and the thick strip of trim that goes along, underneath the windows.
I'm not as big a fan of the blackout treatment on it because I feel like-- and I feel like this is an issue, also, on some of the 7-Series models, that when so much of the front end of it is all gloss black, it just looks like this big, black hole in the front of the car.
That's counterbalanced by the fact that the surround of the grille is illuminated. And so that helps break it up a little bit. But that's also something that-- you can get the trim in different colors. So that isn't such a huge deal.
So for the most part, I like the styling on the outside. And I like the interior too. It's really neat. I like the geometric, suede, headliner--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, me too.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: --with all the ambient lighting that reflects off of it. It's got really cool leather in there. This one had like saddle brown, slightly weathered look, leather on the dash with a cream two tone.
And I don't know if you noticed in the back seat. It's designed to wrap around into the doors. It almost kind of looks like lounge seating or something. It's just a lot of neat stuff to it.
And as for driving it, that-- when I first started driving it, I was like, oh, I don't know about this, partly because-- some of the very first things that I noticed-- one, the really low-profile tires and huge wheels were really noisy over bumps and stuff, and hit a little hard. And it was also a little bit weird, driving away and it was in hybrid mode. And it was super quiet.
And then all of a sudden, the engine would kick on. And because the exhaust valves were open, it'd go from quiet to loud all of a sudden. And that was also weird. And I also noticed the numb, basic, BMW steering. And I was like, oh, man, I don't know. I don't know about this thing. This is a huge SUV and it's doing weird power-draining things.
But as I drove it more, I was glad that it actually has pretty usable electric range. It's like 40 miles, which you can do a lot with that. It's got a decently strong electric motor. So while it still does that thing that a lot of plug-in hybrids do, where if you want to go full electric, you're limiting yourself to how much power you can get, if you don't want the engine to come on.
And that's always a little bit frustrating to me. But it was still plenty-- it was still enough power that it wasn't that big of a deal, if I was just-- if I just wanted to commute somewhere, if I wasn't too worried about trying to drive vigorously.
And also, it's nice that it will stay in full electric mode up to, I think, about 85 miles an hour. So you can even take it on the interstate. And it'll stay in electric mode. Our three-series plug-in hybrid, I noticed that right around 70 miles an hour is when it would switch over to gas-engine mode, which was probably the more efficient way to do it.
However, it was one of those things where if I know that my drive is going to be all electric both ways, it would be nice to be able to still stay all electric. In the XM, you'd be able to do that. And then once I decided that I wanted to drive full force, with like the V8 in maximum attack mode, it was a lot of fun. That V8 sounds really, really good.
And having this super powerful V8, that has really strong high end, with the electric motor that helps fill in at lower RPM, it just feels super strong everywhere. It doesn't taper off like a-- like a full electric at high RPM. And it doesn't feel a little bit sluggish to wake up at low RPM, like some gas engines can be. So it's fun to have that.
And while the steering is still numb in sport mode, it has at least a little bit of artificial progressive weighting, which helps. And the chassis is just really, really good. It grips like crazy. It's super responsive. It does not feel like a vehicle that weighs three tons.
So-- and I think I've said before, I'm not a big fan of a lot of modern BMWs. But I came away quite liking the XM, which I did not expect at all.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I liked it too, I would say. I don't think I liked it quite as much as you did. That's interesting. I think you probably were a little more skeptical, and then did a 180, whereas I had more of a steady state. It's crazy powerful, 644 horsepower, 4.1 seconds, 0 to 60.
It's so over the top in some ways, just like-- it's just-- I don't know. I think for me, it was a lot to digest. And maybe I just didn't fully digest all of it, if you will.
I will say this. I really did like the design. I thought that was definitely a strong point. The base price for this thing is $159,000. And then it goes up from there. So when you're looking at this, this isn't just a hopped up X7. This is really a desirable-- almost a luxury good in and of itself. So that's how I looked at it.
And I think to your point, the interior really reflected that. That was cool. And I also think, not to harp on the design too much, but-- and this is a good thing-- I liked how the roofline went down. And then you have the-- the hips, the fender flares in the back swooped out. I think those are a really good look.
And doing the neighborhood test, as far as who's looking at the car when they walk by with their dogs, people did not really notice most BMWs, unless I get one with a crazy grill or something. But people were looking at this thing.
And I think it almost was independent of the fact that it was a BMW. I think it really just was they went for it with the design in a way that-- I guess you've got to give BMW credit. They really do go for it with design. If there was ever a brand that could be conservative, it could be them. But they're not.
So I think that's-- I think that's another strong point. I think it definitely-- it has a presence. It is-- I think it was fun to drive most of the time. But again, at different points, I was like, what should I be doing at this point? Should I be trying to-- I would put it specifically in hybrid mode because I found that to be most predictable.
But again, a lot of power. I didn't need to charge it. So there was that. And actually, the second row-- trunk's pretty big too. You don't always get that with electric SUVs just because the battery configuration. There was plenty of space in this thing, which I thought was really cool. We went to Costco, got a ton of stuff. So it was very practical in that sense. Your six-figure BMW SUV can go to Costco.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, that was-- some of that, I was actually quite surprised at, like popping open the trunk, I was like, wow, there's actually lots of space in here. And the back seat is really roomy and comfortable too.
And something that was-- because with the plug-in hybrid powertrain, there are definitely a lot of benefits to it. However like you said, I did find it's slightly-- I don't know-- bipolar? It seemed like it had two personalities. It was either--
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: --it could be full-attack hybrid or kind of a hamstrung electric.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yep. I agree completely.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And-- and that could be-- and that was sometimes a little bit frustrating. And I-- and I may need to-- I may need to write something about this. But I think this is an issue, that plug-in hybrids, where the combined output is both the gas engine and the-- there are series hybrids where pretty much all of your propulsion comes from electric motors.
The gas engine is there primarily to generate electricity. Or there's a kind of a clutch system that will allow it to engage the front wheels directly for cruising speed and stuff. But most of your power is the electric motors.
And then there are plug-in hybrids where it's a combination of both the gas engine and the electric motor. And the electric motor is half of the combined output. So if you're just relying on that, you're only getting half the power. And that's how this XM is. And so it feels like-- and so it always feels a little bit like you're penalizing yourself for being in full electric mode.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And that's always a little bit frustrating to me. Even if-- in electric mode, the XM was still fine. It still had decent power. But it was also like, this is not M power. This is-- this is just-- it's fine. But it's not what-- it's not what you're spending all that money on. And granted, the V8 is fun. And so if it's fun to use it.
But basically, what I'm saying is I look forward to when we can see a full electric M car because I would love to have that full XM chassis with a full electric powertrain, even though I did just say that like the gas engine can have a better top end than electric powertrain, but it would be really cool if I could have most of that M power with that M chassis, without using gasoline.
GREG MIGLIORE: I see what you're saying. I think that-- to even take a step back, it reminds me a little bit of when I drove-- I've driven the EQS from Mercedes and some of their very top-end electrics, which really have a purity of mission. They're electrics. They're expensive. And they're desirable because of that.
And then I drove the Maybach version, which is not electric. And you're like, OK, this is all about pure luxury. And it's, you know, an ICE, if you will, powertrain. And even just the GLE AMG I drove-- the 53. I just drove that last week. The story's actually up if you're interested in my take on that. I did six thoughts about it.
And that car just was-- it also had a strong identity as far as just being an AMG. There's some light hybridization with-- really, if you dive deep into it. But it's not really a hybrid. And it's just-- it's an AMG. It's a straight six. It's a turbo. And it is what it is.
So I don't know. This also reminds me a little bit of an example of the I3, only like on steroids, writ large, where they were like, you've got this little city car that's also expensive, wild design, far-out interior, which I liked, by the way. And then they did add a range extender as things went on, as the product evolved, I should say.
And again, another quirky product from a company that has every reason to be very conservative, if you will. So in that sense, I think-- in that sense, I like it. I don't not like it. It's just there's so much to unpack here that maybe we need a long termer. Is that-- you think that's the answer, maybe?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: That'd be interesting. It'd be fun. Something-- some of them would be fun to try with it because well, when I was driving it, and driving it in full sport mode everything, I was finding myself thinking, I would actually like to drive this on a track. And that is not something that I almost ever say about even ostensibly performance-oriented SUVs. I was like, this thing feels so responsive. I would actually like to drive this on a track. And I was genuinely shocked at that.
I think I've only ever felt that way about some Porsche SUVs, that I'm like, ooh, this would actually be fun, driving it fast, on a closed course. But yeah, that was-- well, and actually, talking about just weird identity, that was one of the other things that-- this is a huge SUV. And it's the maximum M product.
And it's-- and it just seems a little bit weird in that sense. It's like, why this? But-- but yeah, it's weird. I don't know if I completely, fully understand it. But I came away quite liking it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, same. And it's interesting you bring that whole track thing. I didn't quite get that vibe. I'm sure it would be fun, though. I've driven some Jaguar SUVs on the track, at Monticello. And aside from the fact that it's just a fun thing to do, like whatever, you know, but it's not the most rewarding track weapon. Let's put it that way. And I suspect that would be the case.
So let's transition over to the Crosstrek. This is the Subaru Crosstrek. This is a limited trim. Ours came in at almost a dead-even $35,000, which again, it was the limited-- which is the top one. We had some options, including-- this was the-- there were some paint and some other things on here-- option 3, is they eloquently call it, which includes the moonroof, Harman Kardon speakers, and Subaru Starlink, adds about 2,500 bucks. So that's how you get from the base price of 31 to what we had, which was 35.
To me, you're getting into a little bit more expensive territory. That was the one knock against it, where it's like, base is 25. You get a bunch of stuff on the premium and the sport models. So I don't really know if you need to go up to the limited trim. I didn't find the interior to be particularly good. It reminded me of-- it was just fine. It had that faux carbon fiber, a lot of dark, hard plastics.
It reminded me of like when we used to like Subarus, but dinged them for the interiors. But then the Forester and the Outback actually got pretty good. And we're like, OK, no, Subaru has stepped up. So I don't know if just enough time has passed that they haven't really updated the Crosstrek enough. But it definitely felt like a value car or like a value-oriented car. And the interior is maybe a compromise you make. Not offensive, good layout. Steering wheels in the right place. Feels fine. Nice seats.
But again, I feel like for this-- for 35 grand, you could get a nicer interior in a lot of different places. It did feel like a Subaru to me. I mean, I'm a Golden retriever owner. I get it. It felt like a kind of car-- Rusty rode over here in it, your dog.
It definitely had that Subaru vibe, where if you like the brand, you would feel good about driving this. And I do like the brand. And it felt like a Subaru to me, which I think is good. You don't get that from every company's entry-level product.
A lot of times, you step into the base thing, whatever it may be, from whoever it may be. And you're like, this is clearly-- they slapped a badge on it and made a compact car or a compact crossover. And it's not that great. I feel like this at least carried that identity, even though there were some compromises.
Speaking of dogs, I thought this thing was dog slow. You really got to-- I thought you had to mash the throttle to get that 2.5 liter Boxster to really do anything. The CVT is again, what you would expect. And I think it looked pretty good. It was a really nice shade of forest green. A couple people complimented me on that. I'm like, it's not my car. But sure, it's a great color.
So overall, I wouldn't say I wouldn't recommend it because I wouldn't say that. I think it could be the right car for a lot of people. I know several Crosstrek owners, actually. But just there's a lot of things in the segment that are actually pretty good. And you can-- especially if you're thinking of the limited, you can get nicer interiors, that type of thing. So what did you and Rusty think of it?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, it's-- I'm trying to think exactly how I want to put this because there are good points to it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: It's got a really-- it's got a good chassis that feels stiff and responsive. It rides well. I like the-- I like the power distribution on Subarus. I like them. It's the-- split 50 over 50. And it feels-- it doesn't feel like a front-drive biased vehicle. And that feels, maybe, a little bit more premium. It steers pretty decently.
The interior-- I agree that a lot of the materials are not great. But it all feels screwed together really well. It feels-- it doesn't feel like it's going to be rattling apart on you after five years or so.
But it's-- it's frustrating. Well, the other thing is this had the 2.5l engine not the 2-liter engine. And I think this is the only way I would ever recommend a Crosstrek to someone because even though this is not a fast vehicle by any means, the 2 liter is worse. And you would just be working it so hard for so little. And this is better.
However, so much of the competition is better still, with little turbocharged engines that have much more torque-- or just all around even more power. You could be looking at, say, a Mazda CX-30, with a turbo engine, that's making 250 horse. Or about a month ago, I was driving a Jeep Compass, the new one with the turbocharged-- it's a 2-liter engine, I think.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, that sounds right, I think.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And it's got 200 horsepower. And that engine is just way peppier, way smoother, and quieter. And it's coupled to a nine-speed automatic, which isn't amazing, but is a whole lot nicer than the CVT that's in the Subaru.
Granted, I don't think the Compass was quite as nice handling or it felt quite as rigid. It's a little bit more flexi, not quite as responsive. But the Jeep-- much nicer engine. And Jeep has come a long way on the interiors. The Compass that we had, it had a really neat cloth covering on parts of the dash, this textured cloth that looked really neat and a little bit outdoorsy and stuff.
And honestly, the Compass was also really spacious inside. The Crosstrek-- one of its advantages, for a long time, was that it was one of the bigger of the sort of subcompactish vehicles. But a lot of the competition has improved significantly in that area. So it's feeling like there's-- I feel like there's less for me to recommend about the Crosstrek anymore.
And with this one, at $35,000, I was just looking at the Subaru website. You can buy an actual Outback for that kind of money, for less than that kind of money.
GREG MIGLIORE: 100%, yep.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And you're actually getting the same engine. But you're also getting a much, much bigger, more usable vehicle. Yeah, so the Crosstrek still has its good points. But it's just a little bit frustrating because it feels like it should be better than it is. And I think it could be better. But I don't know. It feels like Subaru's coasting a little bit with it.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. I-- honestly, unless you specifically want a small car-- maybe you live in a city where you need to park in a parking garage-- I see no reason to not get an Outback. The Outback is the better wagon. I think it looks better. It provides more utility. I really like the Outback, personally.
And you can get-- to your point, you could get an Outback Limited for $35,795, which is $700 more than what we tested. So again, maybe you have a need for a Crosstrek. And you want 33 highway-- on the highway, 29 combined. Maybe it is fuel efficient-ish.
But the other thing is, if you want a small car, I'd get a Mazda 3 hatchback. That's what I would do. If you're in this segment, I would do that. I would-- Mazda CX-30, if you want more of the crossover vibe.
This segment still has some weak points. But you do still have a lot of choices too. If you want a smaller thing, which some-- obviously people do-- you've got a lot of choices. Even-- I have not driven it yet, but the Chevy Trax-- which I think-- I almost can't believe I'm saying this because it used to be such a back marker of a car-- I think it looks great right now. And I'm very interested to drive it.
So if you're looking for something small, you got options. And again, this thing is fine if you want a small car. That's fine, small, crossoverish thing. It's fine. But just when you start to break down the numbers and what else you can get, it's like, oh, jeez. I don't know. Why would you do that?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And even just staying within the Subaru line, you can get a Forester Wilderness for right around $35,000.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yep. And that's a fun one.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, and it's actually probably more capable off road, has more space inside, but also is more compact-- it's not much bigger than a Crosstrek on the outside.
GREG MIGLIORE: That's true. Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, so it sounds like we're in agreement. The Crosstrek isn't bad. And it has good points. But it just seems like it should be better. And the competition has gotten extremely good.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. You got to really want the Crosstrek. You got to-- I don't exactly even know what your purpose is, other than maybe you want something small and you want a small Subaru.
Anyways, let's move on to the Accord Hybrid. I just got mine yester-- two days ago. It's Wednesday morning. It came on Monday. So I think I want to drive it a little bit more. This is the updated version. I think it looks a lot like a Chevy Malibu-- just random thought here.
They really tweaked the tail lights. It looks-- that's a different vibe. And just one general design thought here-- I know I've been talking a lot about design-- but I don't-- it looks sleeker and more modern. But I really like the old Accord, the outgoing one, one of my favorite Honda's.
I don't think this is an improvement. I think it's just different. I don't think it's better. I think it's a little more modern. But I don't think it's better. The other design was outstanding. So-- but it's a very good sized hybrid. You can drive it in electric mode a little bit. This is another one the neighbors are really interested in. So I don't know. There's that. Interior is quite big.
You had quite an adventure trying to drive this thing. You were going to go to New York. The plane couldn't land because of all those storms we had a while ago. So you ended up driving one in the fleet recently as well. This one is on the long list for North American car of the year. Thus it landed in my driveway. But you were doing our first drive for it. So yeah, I'm curious. Do you think you think we need a hybrid in this space at this point? What do you think about that?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Oh, yeah, I think that's a borderline requirement for staying competitive in this segment.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And the Accord hybrid, in particular, is an extremely good hybrid. It's so smooth and refined. And going back to our discussion about hybrids with the XM, it works closer to a series hybrid, where it's mainly providing power via the electric motor.
And I like that because it is-- it's smooth and refined, power wise. It does it does simulate automatic transmission shifts, which-- it feels slightly weird, knowing how it works. But it does make it feel more conventional. And it's not going to annoy or confuse anybody driving it.
But the powertrain is excellent. And it's a really-- and the hybrid now replaces the two-liter turbo four cylinder that the Accord used to have. They dropped that from the line. So now it's just the 1.5-liter turbo engine or the hybrid.
And I think if you're coming away from a 2-liter turbo Accord, you might be a little bit disappointed by the hybrid because it does lack the top end. It's very punchy at lower RPM, lower speeds. But it does drop off a fair bit towards the top end. So it's definitely not as quick as the old 2-liter turbo. However, it's still plenty punchy.
And it's much-- and it's more so than other hybrids in segment, like Toyota Camry Hybrid. It's more refined. It's more powerful. It feels more potent. I really do like it a lot. It's a very, very good powertrain. I haven't gotten to drive the regular 1.5-liter turbo. But I-- which I'm sure is a fine engine. I've experienced it in other Honda's. But I don't think it'll be as nice as the hybrid is. Plus the hybrid returns quite good fuel economy.
I'm forgetting that number off the top of my head. So I'm going to look it up here, really quickly. And we'll try to fill a little bit of the dead air as I looked this up.
But yeah, and even without fuel-economy numbers, I would still probably go with the hybrid anyway just because I like the power. But it is quite fuel efficient. Now that I've got the numbers up, the most efficient version gets 48 miles per gallon combined. And then the sport and touring trims are 44 miles per gallon combined, which is really quite good.
So you're getting power refinement and economy altogether. And that's a pretty sweet combination.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And the suspension is so good. It's a really secure, confident handler, while also-- and corners surprisingly flat. But it's also really comfortable and just glides right over bumps and things. It's a great suspension.
The steering, I think is a little bit of a-- is not as good as past Honda's or even some current Honda's, like Civic and CRV, which that was a little bit disappointing. But I could forgive it because so much of the rest of it was really good.
And on the subject of design, I do agree with you. I think I do prefer the styling of the previous Accord. I think what bugs me about this new one is the front overhang is kind of long now. And the whole thing looks-- I don't know-- a little bit more narrow and a little bit less muscular and defined.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: The old Accord, I think I actually likened it a little bit to-- to the Charger, that it's got this-- broad shouldered, organic, muscular feel to it. This new one-- I don't know. It looks-- it looks like it's wearing more of a fancy suit or something. It's looking a little bit more buttoned up and proper, whereas the old one looked a little bit more playful, I think.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I agree with that totally. And I think it's-- it's more modern. It's maybe a little more upscale. But it's more watered down and generic. When I look at it, it doesn't-- I could-- from a distance, I would not necessarily know it's an Accord. Before you had-- there were some lines. There were some definition.
At first, I was like, Charger, where's he going with this? But I see what you're saying as far as just the character that the styling had, taillights, the hood. It's a little watered down. So-- I will say this. I do tend to think the Accord hybrid is the Accord to get as I look at the lineup. I think if you're looking to get a lot of value for your money and fuel economy and space, and you still want a sedan, this is a really good option for you.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, and I really do think, having driven Accord hybrid now, that this is still basically the best midsize family sedan that you can get. It just does everything extremely well. And I just have a hard time thinking of anything that quite delivers on the same combination of power, economy, refinement, handling./ it just-- it does it all. And it does it really, really well.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, no, its all-around excellence is definitely-- it's the Accord. Of course it's going to be balanced and strong and well rounded.
All right, so we're going to go from sensible to let's spend some money here. We got a lot of horsepower, some luxury sports cars that we're going to figure out which one we're going to keep and kick off the island. It's almost more like a game of Survivor. So this is a fun one. Let me scroll down here.
All right, long-time listener Arun writes, "hey, guys, I go back to the days when Dan Roth and Zack Bowman were on the show." All right, thanks for hanging with us all this time, reading "Autoblog" and listening to the show. We really appreciate it.
"I need to downsize my fleet by one car. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Here's the situation. I have four cars, currently. 1999, E55 AMG with 93,000 miles on the clock. Got it from the original owner with 70. And it's probably the most documented W210 there is. I have every single doc including the canceled deposit check for 500 bucks from the original owner."
That's pretty cool. "2001 BMW Z3 3.0, IndyCar yellow, with the factory hardtop, with 52,000 miles. I spent a fair amount of money on this and installed a supercharger"--
Well, that's an interesting take.
--"along with a few other mods. And the thing absolutely rips." I can imagine. "2016 911 C2S with a 7-speed manual of 32,000 miles. I got this car three years back with around 15,000 miles. And I really enjoy it. I take it to about 25 track days a year across the Northeastern tracks.
Most recent addition is a 2023 BMW M3. This is in Signal Green"-- that's a nice look --"with a manual transmission. Just finished break in and planning a track session at Watkins Glen in August."
That sounds awesome. I have not done Watkins Glen. It's on the short list. "I have around 2,300 miles on it. It just got an allocation for a 2024 Audi RS6 Avant performance. And I want it. So one of the cars has to go. Various reasons. Space is among the top one. The E55 and the Z3 are staying. I'm too attached and I have too much invested financially into them. It doesn't make sense to give either of them up."
I agree with that for a couple of reasons. One, I think the E55 is getting into icon territory. And the Z3, you really have got your own creation there. I think it'd be tough to give that up. Let me put it that way-- which leaves the 911 and the new M3.
"The 911 is the last year of the NA engine. And it's a really good track and street car. You can always get a pre-owned GT4 or GT3 at a later date, which will be even better on the track. The M3 is very unique. But I'm not really sure it'll be as good as the 911 on the track. Even if it is, I don't see it aging as gracefully as the 911, which is seven years old right now.
In three years time, I have a feeling the interior of the M3, with the iDrive 8 screen and all of the tech is going to look terrible. I can't look into the crystal ball. But tech is something that does not hold up great as far as interiors."
So here we go. Which one would you give up for the RS6 Avant? He also has attached a few picks here, which is kind of cool. Expected production date for the RS6 is late October. So if there's any delays, it could push this into early 2024.
I guess what we're doing is spending money to-- or kicking one of these cars out of the garage to spend some money. Which one would you kick out, I guess? I have some thoughts. But I'm curious. Which one would you kick off here?
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah. This is kind of tough. I don't know. I would be tempted-- I would be tempted to bounce it back to you.
GREG MIGLIORE: OK. So let me-- I'll tell you what. I'll give you another minute to consider your thoughts here. First of all, just to look at this garage, here, the E55 AMG, that car just speaks to me so much. I--
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Well, and-- and--
GREG MIGLIORE: It's so good.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And we've established that the Z3 and the E55 aren't going anywhere. So it's--
GREG MIGLIORE: They're not going anywhere. Yeah, yeah, I know. At this point, I'm just ruminating, talking about how much I like that era of Mercedes AMGs. That's just-- I really think that one is going to-- I don't know. I think we're on the same page with that, on a lot of levels.
And of course, the Z3, you've created your own Frankenstein almost unicorn, which I think is awesome. That's great.
My initial impression, because it's the oldest one on here that you're looking at giving up, is the 911. But the distance I have is you take it to 25 track days a year. So to me, you're really using this thing how you want it and how it's intended. And it is 911. It is-- it's a naturally aspirated engine, which this is you getting near the end of the line for those.
This is going to be a little-- I think this might be controversial. But I would kick the M3 out at this point because you're going to have something in your garage that's relatively new. And that's probably going to be your mindset, where you're going out to drive them.
And looking at it through that lens, you don't really need an M3 and an RS6 at that point because the RS6 will be your new thing that's got all the latest things on it. And he's going with the S6 Avant, which I think is pretty cool.
So I think that's what I would do, is get rid of the M3, go through with the RS6 Avant. Plus the RS6 Avant is a little bit different than anything else you have. I don't know how much you need, function wise. But I think that's a cool vibe.
So I think that's what I would do. I don't think you're going to really go wrong here. It sounds like he's a bit of a track guy, which is great. But it seems like you've already got the stuff to satisfy that. So in that sense, the M3, you don't really need that to go to Watkins Glen or Lime Rock because he's already got this 911. So this is a fun one. But I think that's what I would do. So back to you.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Yeah, I think-- I kept going back and forth because on the one hand, it was like, well, you've had the 911 for a while. So maybe that could go away because you'll have time-- you'll have time to use the M3 on the track and get to know that for a while. And that'll be new and fresh while your R6 is your on-the-road car.
And also, since you got the M3 in a really cool color and things. But as I'm thinking about it, the M3-- well, like Greg said, the Porsche-- you clearly are enjoying it a lot. And it's working quite well for you as a track-day car.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: And we'll see how the M-- you should definitely do the M3 at a track day to see how you like it. And that'll inform your opinion also. But I am leaning towards selling the M3 because in part, you can probably sell it for a good bit of money right now. And if you decide in the future that you feel like you made a mistake, depreciation will have maybe brought those back down a little bit in a few years.
The Porsche is probably going to hold its value even a few years from now. So if you sold that and you decided, I've made a mistake, I want to buy one back, I could see that still being on the expensive side.
GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I see. I think it's hit that J-curve point, where it's maybe to start going back up in a few years even.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: Mm-hmm. And you have a couple of cars that are similar to the M3 in overall layout and character and stuff. You've got a couple of front-engine rear-drive cars. You're going to have a front-engine all-wheel-drive car. The 911 is going to be a slightly more unique experience with the flat engine, that rear engine and rear drive.
I'm definitely a believer in having-- and I don't want to have too much overlap in my own, personal garage because--
GREG MIGLIORE: Exactly.
JOEL STOCKSDALE: --because I want to stretch my experience for my dollars as much as I can. My personal garage includes another little supercharged Roadster. I've got a Miata. I've got a turbocharged, tuned Beetle. I've got a Chevy. I've got a GMC Suburban. And I've got a little Suzuki motorcycle.
They're all different aspiration and drive type and size. And I'm definitely a big believer in trying to have a lot of variety and trying to get the most for my money and my space as I can.
So for all those reasons, I would lean toward letting the M3 go, even though-- I'm sure it would be hard to get rid of either of them. I also understand why you need to make room for the Audi. But yeah, I think that's the way I would go.
But all of this advice aside, definitely take that M3 on the track day. See how you like it. If you just love the thing on track, then yeah, keep that and let the 911 go because you should keep-- you should keep the car that you're going to have more fun doing the fun things with it. But yeah, I think-- yeah, I think everything else aside, M3 is probably what I would let go. And it sounds like, Greg, you're in agreement.
GREG MIGLIORE: I do. And I think said it perfectly. If you take the M3 out and suddenly you're just like, oh, wow, I've been with this 911 for a few years, this M3 is what I think is going to be fun for me for the next five, six, seven years, it may be a visceral, emotional experience where that does just change. You're like, wow, this is what I want to take to Watkins Glen, and Lime Rock. That could change you. And you'll know it. It'll just be super easy.
But yeah, going by the information we have at hand, right now, the M3 is the one that gets kicked out. But man, I think you'll know when you know too. That's the other thing.
And the other thing is, if you ask me what I would enjoy driving on a Sunday afternoon, I would love to be driving that 5.4-liter, 8-cylinder in the '99-- the 24-year-old Mercedes. I think that would be more interesting, to me, and more fun than driving you know the turbo 6 in the new M3.
But also, again, I drive a lot of modern cars. So my tastes and what I want to do in my leisure time are different. So I don't know. Let us know what you'd do. Again, there's obviously not really a wrong answer here. Good luck. Enjoy your track time. And please, give us an update.
[THEME MUSIC]
If you enjoy the show, if you to have us spend your money, that's podcast@autoblog.com, five stars on the Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you get the show. Thanks for hanging out this week, Joel. Thanks to our producer, Erik Maier, for all of the work he does to make us sound good. Be safe out there. And we'll see you next week.
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